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well I will I will go ahead and get started so first off I want to thank the our Bertram off chain labs chain link and blockchain community for joining us today in addition I want to especially thank Ed Felten here whos the founder of off chain labs which makes their product Arbitron Johanna is not here currently if he has an opportunity he will be joining us a little bit later and I will give him a quick intro as soon as he does so the first thing I wanted to explain was kind of the goal of this Q&A was just to allow the community to learn more about integration between Arbor trimmer Train link Explorer and kind of what makes our Bertram unique and beneficial to eventually the end users of these products so for the agenda for the first 32 kind of 40 minutes here were just going to have just kind of a typical IMA structure we have a couple questions prepared you know for ED that really gets into a little bit detail about kind of what theyre building why theyre building it what value that it brings and then of course Ill pull a couple questions here from our Q&A that are relevant well ask those and so we should be done here again in about 35 to 45 minutes if you have any questions that werent address please feel free to obviously drop by our reddit I know ed uses uses Twitter as well so Im sure if you have kind of a relevant question that pops up hell be more than happy to to kind of answer that or someone from that team will be happy to answer that Ill also add any links so Ill add any links to their social channels as well at the bottom of the description the YouTube video so if you want to reach out explore more kind of about what Ive seen Labs is creating you can you could certainly do so so kind of without further ado ed would you mind just sort of explaining a little bit about yourself maybe about your background and kind of how you got started in this industry sure yeah so Ive been working for a long time Im in computer science in doing programming I started programming its a teenager which was quite some years ago Ive been a computer science academic teach being at Princeton for about 25 years but taking a bunch of excursions from there to do different stuff to advise companies to Ive worked several times in the US government most notably as a senior advisor to President Obama and basically Ive been in the blockchain space since about 2013 when I started doing research in the area this led to some teaching and we created a textbook out of Princeton um that is as far as we know the the most-used University textbook in cryptocurrencies used at about 250 universities around the world so Ive been in this space for quite some time the idea for arbitrarily came out of some of the university research started looking back around 2014 started to look at this question of how to make smart contracts be more scalable so we were really excited about smart contracts as a technology they let you run any kind of computer program in a fully trust --less way so that anybody around the world can see whats happening can trust whats happening thanks to the beauty of doing it on a blockchain so thats a tremendously powerful technology but there was this huge problem which is that it only operated its small scale so like as an example etherium can run smart contracts and so aetherium basically gives you a sort of worldwide shared fully trusted computer that can operate in this trustless way right but that computer is really slow its maybe a tenth of a laptop in total capacity that has to be shared by everybody in the world and thats not going to cut it if were trying to build a worldwide ecosystem that can serve everybodys needs this is like so smart contracts are kind of in the space that I remember from my teenage years with like the Commodore 64 a very early personal computer it was cool enough that you could see that the potential but also you couldnt really do the things you wanted on it because the capacity just wasnt there so what are Bertram is about what our company is all about is letting smart contracts scale up so that you can have a lot more performance you can have a lot more users you can have a lot more computation in a smart contract you can have a lot more storage in a smart contract and so you can do the things that people want to do online in a smart contract and you can get beyond what up to now had been mostly sort of toy applications even moderate size applications in areas like defy or gaming really straining against the limits of what etherium can do and so what our technology lets you do is it lets you get a lot more scale it lets you lower the cost of operation of a smart contract a lot and you can do that without having to sacrifice the anything in terms of security and also without developers having to completely rewrite their applications in some totally new way so we want to make it really easy to take the stuff that already works or the methods that already work and just move them over and give them this huge turbo boost in speed thats what thats what our return is about awesome well thank you for that thank you for your background of that kind of kind of detailed description I guess kind of playing off that you know you just mentioned thats what our Bertram is about really adding the scalability can you just talk a little bit about maybe the technology behind that or or or how it actually works yeah the key move is to get almost all of the computation and storage of a smart contract off the main etherium chain um but to do that without giving up the security that the main chip does so basically what we do is we take the we take everything that happens inside a smart contract and it gets moved into validators which are anybody in the world who wants to participate in making sure that a particular contract or DAP is running correctly can be a validator and basically the validators do the heavy lifting but there is a small on chain contract that makes sure that everything is correct and the secret sauce is really and how you can move almost all the work off off the main chain while still getting the security and the ease of programming that comes with the main chain application so thats the main move that we make just move everything off chain or almost everything off chain theres just a little bit of the iceberg that sticks up above the water and its visible on the main chain awesome so used to but you do still get kind of the finality that sort of that aetherium block sadly right right so its still trustless and what we mean by that is that any anybody whos participating in a smart contra can force that contract to get the right result even if everyone else in the world is against you so even if every single other person is malicious or trying to stop you you can force correct behavior all by yourself and thats what you need thats what it means for a system to be trustless is you know its going to do the right thing if you just if you just are running a correct version of the software you can be confident that the right thing will happen and your contract is going to do what its supposed to do you itll make the payments its supposed to make to you if youre supposed to win the game or whatever it is whatever the rules are of the of your contract theyre going to get enforced correctly right even though almost all of the activity is moved off of the main chain and thats why you get scalability first of all you can have separate chains for different apps so each app can sort of have its own can operate at full speed without others getting in the way and then because we move stuff off of this very very cumbersome on chain system we can also just go a lot faster on each chain so each chain can have many times the performance of the whole aetherium network awesome well thats pretty cool very interesting Im sure you know youve been aware in this space its kind of I think a lot of people think this is great but scalability is you know continues to be a main challenge a game developer you know wants to explore and if they need something they can do something you know lots of players doing things that are very short amount of time right now it doesnt seem like you know aetherium has a capability to handle something like that but hopefully you know utilizing you guys or your technology thatll be something that you know in the near future cant happen thats were certainly working to get there we have a beta version of our Arbitron roll-up product thats available online now and if and Sewer so inclined can go look and read the source code its all open source you can read the developer Docs its all there to to try out on testing now and we have some some even better things coming down the road even better scalability as well as things like different integrations like the integration with chain link that makes sure that you can do all the things that you want to do in a smart contract including getting ax to getting access to data feeds and interoperating with other systems that are out there also perfect yeah well that yeah thank you for explaining that a lot of people kind of always wonder with these integrations you know how does how does chain lis come into play and it seems like just similar just grab being able to grab grab those data feeds feed it in the smart contracts yeah yeah excellent yeah theres I mean there is really I think the way I think about this integration is there are sort of benefits on both sides if you are a person who lives in the chain-linked world you can take advantage of arbitrary and you can get scalability and much higher performance lower cost in smart contract computations if youre a person who is living in arbitral and and is really excited about what were doing you get the benefits of connect of access to the chain link network you get access to chain link data feeds in a way thats faster and more convenient and you have the ability to use chain link nodes to help act as validators for your arbitrary computations so whichever world you come from basically you get the benefits of the other world through this integration awesome oh yeah that makes I think that makes a lot of sense I guess going into that what were some of the challenges I guess either that sort of you faced in in in kind of building this or or just overall in the space obviously bringing scalability I guess why did you kind of why did you choose this solution for scalability versus you know maybe some of the other stuff thats out there sure so we started out with the idea that we wanted scalability like everyone wants scale it sure right the hard part is to get scalability without giving up trust without giving them security and and without requiring P these are applications all around or right their applications in some weird new language or or sort of framework and so in our original academic research we figured out basically how to get scalability without giving up security how to protect the security guarantee by basically through a model where you have these validators who are operating to make sure the chain operates correctly and theres a kind of dispute resolution mechanism so if the validators argue with each other if to validators have put down stakes on different incompatible claims about whats gonna happen in a contract then we have this I think really clever and super efficient way of resolving the dispute and figuring out whos right on chain so that was like what came out of our academic work then when we wanted to make it into a product the big challenge was how can we make this work seamlessly with the stuff thats already out there how can we make it so that people can write their contracts in solidity how can we make it so that you can pass tokens and eath in and out of this of these arbitrary chains smoothly how can we make it easy to deploy easy to debug how can we make it more pluggable so that you can integrate stuff with it that was all the stuff that turned it from an academic project where we said cool we can get security and scalability to the third piece which is actually like having it work with the real ecosystem as it exists and a lot of our product work has been there and also really pushing the envelope on performance weve understood as we built this thing weve come to understand a lot more about what are the barriers to very high performance in smart contracts and were doing a bunch of research which are going to see rolling out into our product over the next six months or so which lets us go really fast our goal is pretty ambitious I think but we want basically each chain to be able to run as fast as any normal computer so we dont think there should be much penalty at all for doing running something as a smart contract instead of just like running it on your own computer or running it on some corporate data center with all the drawbacks that come with that where you just like have to trust them to not to not shut down or or take your your data or tokens right so we think you can have trust we think you can have integration and we think you could have it without a performance penalty much at all were not there yet nobodys close to that but you know thats thats the target were shooting for as and thats what I think is really necessary if this smart contract ecosystem is going to get as big as we think its gonna get okay yeah perfectly I think that makes a lot of sense I guess that kind of circles to it to a question that we got from a community I really I guess it has to do with at least as of now how much more scalability are you seeing I guess in terms of kind of whats whats out there currently sure so theres lots of ways to measure scalability and you need to be a little bit careful about it I think you see some claims that are just like empty transactions per second this is literally like how many times can you take a box per second and thats worth you know thats interesting we think were about in terms of just like empty TPS we think were something like twenty times the performance of raw aetherium for for each for each Arbit remain so for each day but theres other measures of scalability as well one of one of the scalability measures we care a lot about is storage so storage in smart contracts on aetherium is super expensive depending on how you count its a hundred thousand to a million times as expensive as storage on your local computer and thats a huge barrier to doing interesting applications where theres a lot of state or a lot of users so for us we get the cost of storage down to basically the same cost as it is on a few well a few times the cost and in your local computer so a huge improvement there we also the other notion of scalability we care a lot about is how much computing can you do per second so and so aetherium has a global gas limit which in aetherium gas is about a million gas per second give or take and were seeing something like a hundred million gas per second roughly where we are right now with our open source product so again and thats again thats per chain and so were offering you know orders of magnitude improvement over basic aetherium for each chain basically on all of these measures and this is where we are now and were expecting this to go up as our product develops further so thats thats kind of the ballpark where and you can think more than ten times the performance of aetherium for each chain and much more for some of these measures a lot of it depends on what your application specifically does we speed up some things a lot more than others but everything we speed up by by a really substantial factor Wow okay yeah well thats definitely you know ticking the scaleability box in a couple different ways for sure kind of you know you just spoke a little bit about gaps and stuff are there any specific use cases kind of that youre seeing sort of right out of the bat that kind of make the most sense or or what are your thoughts there well I think two areas I would focus on our D Phi and gaming in D Phi especially as you get beyond the really basic initial D Phi applications that you saw people are doing computations that are more complicated you talk to people building more sophisticated D Phi apps and theyre talking about systems that have enough computation in them that they can do maybe one or a few transactions per second on a theory empty and that would use up all of the power of aetherium so we think D Phi requires a lot of scalability as you start to move to more sophisticated applications weve weve stood up on test net a running example of you know swap as a as a sort of very simple defined demo and this is one of the things actually weve done which highlights the ease of porting applications across onto orbitrim so we took a unis WAP implementation of you know swap its written for aetherium that runs on aetherium and we ported it over to arbitrary we had to change about 20 lines of code total to to do that port so that was a matter of you know just a very short amount of time for one of our engineers about 20 lines of code different you just run it through our tool chain and you can stand up and you know swap chain but you know as you move on to defy applications that require a lot more computation that have more complicated market structures or more complicated derivatives all this stuff people really want to do in our it you to do but doesnt quite fit on the theorem we think thats a big area another big area we think is gaming applications of all kinds so right now again on if you look at something like aetherium youre really talking about casual games you know you can play tic-tac-toe but even something like chess is maybe a little bit too much and I dont even mean like the Machine figures out what move to make in chess Im just talking about something that makes sure that youre the players that where two players are playing and the Machine makes sure youre not cheating even that sort of strains it so as you go to mark complex games with more players with non-player characters with really more interesting game dynamics youre going to have to have a lot more scalability and so we think theres a lot in the gaming space as well those are two big areas that that we think are going to be early in in meeting the kind of scalability that were talking about okay yeah very good yeah I think those are exciting use cases I know for our community obviously defy the defies a huge one and I think a lot of people see this sort of gaming might be the next kind of big thing to hit I just think theres got to be a couple things being you know solved maybe first until it does so it sounds like you know thats one of the things you guys are are able to assist with perfect just scrolling here through some of our questions here yeah I guess so that being said is there anything you can share you mention a little bit or maybe even if its just where people can kind of follow your progress but obviously youve got this beta version kind of what sort of the next steps kind of in your teams progression here so were doing yeah we have a few things we have a few irons in the fire one is that our beta currently is of the arbitrament rollout product so that lets you run an arbitral chain for adapt that is open meaning that anybody can be a validator and anybody can see whats happening inside the spark contract were gonna were gonna roll out the sister product of that which is arbitrary channels or side chains basically where its you have a permission set of validators and that can give you higher performance and it also can give you privacy for your nap so that only the validators of your dap need to know whats happening inside inside your side chain so you could expect that in a matter of weeks I never want a promise release dates but were measuring it in were estimating it in a number of weeks rather than months were moving the removing the roll-off beta toward main chain deployment thats mainly a matter of security due diligence theres a little bit of feature addition we need to do but nothing major there and so were going to be doing security audits and so on so that people can have the confidence in our code that that that people want in order to put a lot of real money on it so and then were continuing to push performance we have a bunch of new ideas to to get potentially order of magnitude improvements in the performance of these side chains and smart contracts and thats the other big thing that were pushing on and then finally its its integrations so you know we had this chain link integration and were working to continue to build that out and to work with people who are interested in working across that integration developers and so on were and were continuing to push on that and then finally were doing some more interesting demo applications right now sort of the flagship demoed app that were running is the you swap but were working to run both really advanced and well-known defy adapts on the system as well as some I think really interesting gaming applications that will be standing up as demos and I dont want to steal the Thunder from those announcements but I think theyll be pretty exciting when they do come awesome so I know he talked a little bit about avi off chain computation and is it is there potential at least in the future or you know for a chain link node to be able to run obviously some of this computation as well like will that be possible essentially perhaps exactly right thats one thats one of the big things that comes out of this integration is that chain link nodes will be able to act as validators for arbitrary chains it basically means that means that chain link node is there its watching what happens on the chain and its making sure that it executes that executes correctly so I mean this is a big thing for people who want to have the benefits of this model and dont necessarily want to have to run anything that is security critical for your chain on your own computer or if you just want to kind of a belt-and-suspenders approach yeah Ill run my own chain but I want somebody else whos watching over it and making sure that it is is honest because of the security guarantees that our models give you need only one even validator to be present and honest in order for the right thing to happen so if you want to hire a chain link node or eight chain link nodes to be validators of your of your chain if you want to outsource that completely - chain link nodes if your adapt developer thats great and this integration will make that really easy and so we look forward to you know and thats what the engineering teams from chain-link and Afghan labs have been doing in building out that that integration thats the side thats one of the sides were channeling people could take advantage of the orbitrim technology at the same time were doing other stuff to make sure that chain length data feeds and and so on are available and fast within arbitral chains so that the integration works the other way as well perfect yeah well thank ya thank you for that I know that was one of the things that really excited our community was just saying that its not you know a lot of times its traditional data feeds which is obviously which is very valuable but I think its that interesting part of how can this scale up you know how could this community take part potentially and you know and some of the scaling down the road so thats I know it definitely excites us yeah youre talking about something like defy for example right that the defy applications of the future theyre going to require off chain computation and scaling theyre also going to require really good and fast and reliable data feeds so when you put that together youve got something really powerful awesome well yeah thank you so much for that for that kind of description but before we step away I know a couple people and the community had sort of expressed to me kind of you know how impressed they were by sort of your team and its sort of whos working on that would you mind just sort of mitching maybe some of the other key players kind of on your team sure yeah so um yeah let me start actually with our co-founder my co-founders there are three of us who co-founded the company and this as I said earlier this all started out as an academic research project and so the three leads on that in addition to myself and and one of the secrets by the way of academic research is that the like senior professor which is what I was is kind of the mentor and advisor but the the brains of the operation are usually the PhD students and so the brains of this operation while we were building it were my two then PhD students and our co-founders Kerry Kalandar and Steven goldfeder and theyve done really groundbreaking work in addition to this Harry builds blocks I which is one of the leading measurement and monitoring tools for monitoring the Bitcoin blockchain along with a bunch of others Stephen is among other things the co-inventor of the threshold signature schemes that are now so hot in this community he knows a lot about cryptography and is you know computer science theory ninja which has been super powerful so you know I think we have a great team of founders and we really complement each other well I think all three really have deep technical backgrounds so I think thats been important for sure we have strong engineering team and we have strong an engineering team as well behind this we are our ninth person is going to start on Monday so awesome we are you know were building up that capacity weve been it Ive been a big believer in maintaining a to pizza team that is a team thats small enough that you can get everybody in the room and you have that kind of fluid communication and youre not do and theres no wasted effort when you have to be efficient with the small team so weve really focused on having a very having a small but very strong team as we built it out so you know and weve been building a community weve been building links within the within the community we recognize that theres no one company thats gonna build everything thats needed and you know our strategy has been to plan for and build for integrations along the way and I think thats really been working so I think a lot of the success weve had and a lot of the success we plan to have is around working with other people in the community and helping to build an ecosystem that can really solve their problems that people need solved awesome yeah thank you so much for sharing the background of your team I know for me one of the big thing was obviously yourself and as you mentioned your other co-founders but in academia a lot of times you know what weve noticed especially in this industry is that theres people that write papers and then theres people that are basically building stuff and its this is a unique situation where you know youve got the research and youve actually got the building occurring at the same time so yeah so I mean Ive been my attitude as an academic has always been Im what academics call a builder which means that I tend I dont want to write about something unless Ive actually built it and I think theres a lot of benefits that come from that and so we really started out toward the very practical sort of engineering building side of the academic computer science space but then weve really focused since we started the company on the stuff we need to do to to make this work and to make it real and to make it integrate and what we found is that theres a kind of sweet spot where you have the kind of level of expertise and the technical ninjas that come from that academic background but youre really focusing on solving the problems that people need in order to make products work and we kind of feel like we are we have done a good job so far at living in that sweet spot and that we really think that being able to do really deep computer science innovation is is has been one of the keys to what were doing is sort of our style of work were trying to make the most of the fact that we have that background awesome yeah exactly well that appears to be the case perfect so before before we wrap it up and is there anything you know specifically else that you like to talk about or you like to touch on before wrap this up I just want white people to reach out to talk to us to if folks are interested if youre a developer you can look at our developer Docs at developer doctrine labs comm if you go to all of our code is on github get hub comm off train labs slash arbitrament we have a discord off trade labs follow us on Twitter octane labs or me ed Felten on Twitter those are the places again information we really love to talk to people and engage if youre a developer and you want to lose use our stuff please reach out to us and yeah thats basically it you know as I said you know this is all about building a community that solves problems for people and were eager to engage in this community these days were gonna do it by video and online for a little while but but well well do it however it needs to be done awesome yeah were were definitely right right there with you at least we have the ability to do something like this these days and and can share what were building and can share some of the cool developments even if we cant be in person right now so first off I just want to say hey I thank you so much again everyone this is you know ed Felten co-founder of off chain labs their product its arbiter Im very exciting stuff he mentioned just a bunch of links just a moment ago what youll do if youll give me a little bit of time Ill get those updated here on the bottom of the description of the YouTube data can do your own research or find anything more obviously Twitter and things like that are great to have a discord as well they just mentioned if you have any questions and youre in our community and you dont know how to do that by all means you can certainly ask here and then Ill be more than happy to kind of redirect you to their channels and make sure you do it there but again and thank you so much for joining us and taking a moment of your time to share with us well be sharing this video kind of throughout our community as well and Ill be sharing that with you so that you can share it but it was it was it was excellent hearing you speak look forward to doing something again as we continue as you guys continue rolling out things obviously we would love to get kind of updates from you and your team as you guys kind of take those next steps Thanks Ive enjoyed this Im always happy to talk about what were doing and were really excited about it and were really excited about what were doing and were really excited about working the chain like awesome well again thank you so much thank you so much everybody who join us in the blockchain kind of community chain-link garbage from community for joining us and we look forward to doing this again soon thank you so much Id really appreciate it thanks Live Stream Q&A with Ed Felten Co-Founder of OffChain Labs discussing Arbitrum, scalability solutions, and the ability to use the Chainlink Network for off-chain computation. If you would like to learn more about OffChain Labs, Arbitrum, Chainlink, or off-chain computation please explore the links below.OffChain Labs Website: Twitter: Discord: Learn how it works: Academic Paper: Read the code: Ed Feltens Twitter: Chainlink SmartContract Twitter also controlled by CL: @Smart_Contract Youtube: Reddit: Discord:
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