chainlink gamingDevelopments in the Web3 Gaming Metaverse with OpenDive, ChainGuardians, & OVR

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chainlink gaming OpenAI lan a programa de recompensa de... Developments in the Web3 Gaming Metaverse with OpenDive, ChainGuardians, & OVR
welcome to the chain link user round table my name is andy boyan from chain link labs title of this user round table is the gaming metaverse were joined by a number of interesting panelists uh when i invited them here none of them asked me like why are you doing a panel um they all just joined in very willingly and happily and i appreciate it very much but the reason i wanted to do this panel is because im fascinated by this topic this area and i thought this would be a great fun topic and i really wanted to dig in and so who better than to bring in people building different versions of the metaverse in our ecosystem all chain link users as well um so we are super happy to host this from chain link labs uh were gonna get started here in just a sec weve got diego from ovr robert from chain guardians and urban from open dive uh awesome to have you guys here thank you so much for joining me but let us start right away um the context of this weve had a few months now um quite a few months now to process the facebook meta announcement the rebranding from facebook to meta really launching this idea of the metaverse into the public consciousness many of you all of you are building metaverse at that time like it had to have been a shock a surprise a little bit of excitement a little bit of fear um but then the broader world started to grapple with this whole concept of the metaverse so to start how do you think now given a couple of months in how do you think the public understanding of the metaverse has changed where do you think we are and in doing so tell us a little bit about what youre building uh diego lets start with you yeah thanks so uh of course i mean the meta announcement was uh i mean a great push i think for everybody that is working on the metaverse and because basically before when i was talking about what i was doing people really scratched their heads and now they say oh yes youre doing that metaverse treats yes i heard about that zuckerberg is doing it also so i mean in terms of awareness this was uh was really great of course uh we are not really on the same path of of zuckenberg were building something totally different but also i see that in the general consciousness uh even if i mean zuckerberg maybe start the ball roll rolling open metal races are something that are actually grasping attention also of brands uh and many many many big companies are looking into that so i mean in our case what we are building its different button because i mean its decentralized but also because uh what uh actually uh mita from facebook is doing is trying to create a virtual world so that is a classical actually metaverse representation i mean the one for snow crash uh in in so also the fact that four years ago they bought oculus for a gazillion dollars i mean theyre this this idea didnt really came out of the blue that it was something that was they were building so in our case uh we are not focused on vr metaphors but on an augmented reality metaphors and also the means uh that we use to actually uh experience these metaverse is not really the headsets that are super cool but basically if very few people have those our technology basically is scaled to run mobile phones so that we have the broader public possible so right now is mobile phones because this is the the best way to experience augmented reality and in a close future probably one year or less with smart glasses as soon as there is a device that actually is affordable enough to be widespread and yeah i mean its uh anyway its all good its so good i love the diversity of different metaverse type experiences here augmented reality uh a really fascinating snapshot lets pull in a little bit more irvine maybe you can youve got a little bit more of a virtual world that you guys are building or you can talk about that a little as well how has the reception been since the facebook announcement as people come to understand what youre building yeah in particular i think uh were not a fan of it im not a fan of it i think you know efforts from big corporations really lead to the ambassadorization of technologies and a lot of these concepts right and the gentrification of the technology itself because even after the facebook quote-unquote matter versus launch what do we see now everything is a quote-unquote metaverse you know a simple p2p game is another verse you know a 2d scroller is a metaverse its its a mixture between you know seeing the past conversation of the quote-unquote concept and the gentrification of the tech and so nelson i think were not a fan of it because it was particularly focused on virtual reality and distracts from a broader the broader concept of the quote-unquote metaverse right which encompasses various areas of research like identity virtual economies and a plethora of research in socio-economic questions right what happens when youre interacting in a virtual world what happens when you cross over different virtual worlds and so on and even as you know we consider you know like for example in in the context of the metaverse like personally here at opendive we consider the metaverse as actually leading to a bridge between the virtual and the physical and what we call the cyber physical right and so theres not an emphasis on that uh and so i think its a good uh its a good opportunity for the retail to kind of get adjusted but it distracts from the broader concepts and you know lastly well make the note that its actually also personally uh you know our concern with the with the efforts from facebook because in reality not what you see is actually big corporations or businesses trying to entrench or approach the metaverse in their own terms right because when we talk about in web 3 about the metaverse we talk about things being interoperable right we talk about optionality inclusiveness but the quote-unquote business-driven metaverse is closed right ive been on a few different twitter spaces where people are saying hold on a second you know this whole notion of interoperability between you know having different worlds virtual worlds and characters and assets traveling across it wouldnt work because essentially were going to damage these quantum code companies or businesses building these you know gaming products and you know the question is that in reality thats not our problems as users right its usually our problem is that and you know it doesnt have to do with like the business of the company not building good experiences that kind of keep the users engaged right uh and stuff like that but you know its very interesting i think to see that facebook kind of brought this to the retail perspective but there are questions like imagine like a vampire attack in a metaverse world uh things like that are very interesting to explore uh you know its one of the reasons i wanted to have this conversation is um or another conversations ive heard is the web 2 model doesnt always necessarily fit in a lot of these decentralized systems like theres give and take that is going to happen thats already happening and were now exploring what does that look like is it uh player owned assets is it user-owned assets and are they transferring between an open dive and a facebook meta you know whatever that happens to be very open questions uh and very interesting in terms of web two models as well robert uh from chain guardians what is your perspective uh on this has it eased your conversations with people about um what youre building and talk a little bit about what change guardians is building in terms of metaverse yeah for sure i mean some really awesome kind of talk points from diego and irvin there and you know ill probably piggyback off some of things some of the things that theyve said because you know i think that theyve theyve both hit a lot of really important factors i completely agree with irving in the sense that im not a huge fan in fact to say im not a huge fan its pretty much an understatement uh that matter i id even dislike calling the company that name if im completely honest because i almost feel like how come one just basically say you know well now chain guardians were going to call ourselves concept i i kind of struggle with that because the word in itself im not sure quite sure how one can kind of like um you know ascertain ownership of that or the rights to that or whatever but you know im not here to kind of talk about that in too much detail but safe to say im not a huge fan of of that um for many of the same reasons that irving has kind of alluded to is that essentially facebook are looking to i would say monopolize they are looking to essentially turn what is a concept uh and in many cases an ideology in in terms of what the level youre discussing or talking about the metaverse within uh and turn it into a proprietary platform where essentially they have full control over that over that world now that to me is a virtual world a proprietary virtual world that to me is not a metaverse um i think we should we need to be really careful in defining those terms um you know for me a proprietary virtual world doesnt it shouldnt be confused with what the metaverse is and then again i think its important when were talking about it to the public is that were not talking about like or were defining what we mean when we talk about the metaverse as the kind of the first step because you know on a product on a product level uh sorry on an ideological level the meta versus this this kind of concept which is what irving was alluding to before where anybodys tacking on the term metaverse now and everything all of a sudden the product is a metaverse you know but that you know what theyre talking about here is the ideology right theyre talking about you know this space or the evolution of the internet where one can be represented as a digital self across these entirety of kind of interconnected experiences but theyre actually referring to their products as a metaverse and thats not always distinctly true the the the definitive characteristics of what is to define a metaverse are you know where there is a digital representation of self which is typically reflected in like an avatar other kind of features of a metaverse will include things like for example interoperability the ability to kind of experience multiple different layers of content experience uh across like synonymous up or cross platform if you like so an open world an open uh an open environment uh for me is what constitutes what a meta versus when i talk about it on a product layer um and thats kind of like how id enter into this and i think in terms of chain guardians and where we coming it from i guess weve just uh unveiled crypto verse which is you know 3d virtual world we i would argue that is a product which is a metaverse uh because of the characteristics that define it um you know however you know in terms of the actual rpg and the other products within the chain guardians ecosystem they are not met verse and i try to be very clear when you see you know nft games or anything else that pop up saying we have metaverse product or project i think that thats almost uh diluting and and i think even irvine used the word bastardizing you know the use of the term there um so yeah anyway thats yeah i think i just want to add two two points um because i always get this notion that people think the motherboard is something relatively new and um everyone attributes the metaverse you know neil stephensons snow crashed right but you know the whole concept of the metaverse has its four bearers right even as early as in 1800s you know i remember in 1932 the term virtual reality first appeared uh you know like in 1945 theres this thing called the mix which essentially allows you to kind of always like imagining how a primitive computer device would work like and and so the concept has been there for quite a while right its nothing relatively new to you know snow crashes no crash kind of quoted this term and there were even previous uh kind of like books so we can look at actually um the novel called i think its true names right thats like a forbearer by the author william gibson uh and so the concepts of sex have been there you know thoughts have been uh laid out and now were like were kind of a tipping point where were gonna have to kind of put these pieces together and make it happen the second point i wanted to make really quick is that i think you know like as we all know theres always like you know trends in technology and so like my perspective on here is actually the same trend that we saw early on in 2015 to 2017 with the whole notion of distributed ledger technology i dont know if you guys realize that i mean i was there in the trenches i was looking actually at ethereum alliances pitch deck and saying yes or no i used to work at goldman sachs you know the strategy and then r3 consortium the same thing happened right where essentially these people came and said hey look we need this corporate blockchain this distributed ledgers closed chains you know everybody come together because we provide the best experience and so i think we might see you know parallel in the quantum code metaverse with these kind of big corporations who have like lots of funding and connections will say hey this is our quote unquote metaverse technology its the best you should come over but as we look at what happened with the cervical ledge of technology it was kind of left behind right a lot of people left r3 consortium ethereum enterprise alliance is just hanging in there i mean i dont need to to kind of um you know bring down the tech and stuff that are working but i think we all know that open source technologies or technologies that are more uh inclusive open and optionality is like like definitely the way to go and from our perspective for example when we look at open dac technologies has been things like interoperability of assets so people talk about nfts right being interoperable you know the taxonomy for nfts and the metadata is not there like how do you make for example nfts and travel across different chains we havent thought about that right and so currently for example with uh our work that were doing with metaplex which is solanas uh nft standard and protocol were looking at these concepts and seeing for example not only how these nfts could be interpretable across change but also across games and perhaps through type of taxonomy but also thinking about the user experience were building open air or also building our wallet which i showed you a quick demo where you can interact with nfts and augmented reality and placement do things like geolocation drop i havent clicked on it yet i saw it come through but were doing this i will um this kind of leads me to my next question uh irvin youre starting to talk about these uh experiences direct player or user experiences and robert you got into this idea of these are the virtual experience of the us of the metaverse can you touch a little bit well start diego with you um as youre building out your metaverse augmented reality metaverse version whatever it is what are some of those core experiences that you are really trying to uncover for players what are those meaningful moments uh as they say that that users are having uh that are a genuine metaverse uh experience yeah so basically uh what we are trying to be this is this bridge between the physical and the virtual so uh basically there are less resi i mean the the lowest resistant parts to get people in a metaverse basically is through gaming and thats why i mean uh the the incumbents right now at least in the meta war at least in the crypto board uh are basically mostly gaming platforms so we are for example thinking about sandbox so in our case since we are working with augmented reality and again uh the big success in the lets say traditional world of fermented reality for example is pokemon go the first use case that actually picked up uh in our platform is a game like pokemon go so people going around and collecting assets but the big difference of course is that those disasters that can be owned by people now so again this is the web3 enabling uh actually an opt-in ownership a lot of assets because i mean users at the end of the day can also just play the game but i mean they also can own the assets they want so this is i mean uh the first uh the first use case that we enabled and its quite quite successful so and its also very interesting in terms of interoperability because once we saw that this was working we started actually on boarding other nft projects that basically can distribute their nfts through these uh means or can actually gamify those uh so this i think is the one of the first thing that is good to actually uh on board people uh and create communities and another thing i think that right now everybody talks about uh play to earn because of course this is a great success also again talking about this metaverse term that is a buzzword so every now is applied to every for example x infinity is not i mean if we go to the vr version of a metaverse its not really a metaverse but i mean its maybe in a broader sense maybe its correct to call it a metaphor so anyway play to earn from max infinity uh created this big wave this big wave of awareness uh but i do believe that actually playing is something important but also there will be other things inside the of these metaphors other things that maybe can create value to users so again i dont want always to talk about my platform over the course im biased so its what i do what what basically now we are building also is a mapping so basically a job inside the meteors so since we need to build this bridge between the physical and the virtual we actually need to met physical location and since this is something that has value uh this mapping thing can generate an nft so again uh an activity that maybe is not on the game that actually generates an asset uh that actually is enabled its existence is enabled by the nft standard so i mean for me really the important thing is to create experience that i can engage people and let them on board in the platform and actually uh create something that generates a digital asset that people can own i think that these two things uh are very very important in our core of this technology robert uh how about you you guys have the chain guardians game and then theres the metaverse thats adjacent and connected you just said theres a split between those things a distinction what are those player experiences or are the user experiences and how do they combine yeah i mean for me you know i i guess there is an element of uh personal opinion as to what would constitute a metaverse versus what would not uh for me its like again just alluding to it depends on whether youre talking about the conceptual or the ideological layer of metaverse or the product layer of metaverse right um i think most theres theres often some confusion between the two um so for me like for example axiomfinity like like yoga alluded to there you could say it is a metaverse experience on an ideological layer on a product layer you know it doesnt really have those characteristics which would define it as a product of a metaverse and i think that thats where i think the distinction needs to be made in in my opinion um but that said i think that there is an uh like a an intrinsic you know inseparable symbiotic relationship between blockchain gaming um you know nfts and the metaverse because in many ways these different types of you know the blockchain games and nfts um and the kind of the the power that they bring in terms of provable ownership and interoperability are what are going to enable some of these really powerful experiences experiences which are going to occur inside the metaverse so you can almost like forgive for example lets say the confusion of that term in some cases because for me the two are you know basically symbiotic theres not really going to be any i would argue any successful metaverse or any metaverse at all which is going to exist that doesnt have uh you know significant social layers a significant gamification layers you know different ways for rewarding users different ways for encouraging engaging users uh to to you know to effectively um spend time within within that platform so yeah yeah i i dont know if i agree with your definition i think its fine i i think this is my personal opinion not not the opinion of chain-link labs uh but i think the most useful way of defining terms or the the the greatest use of defining terms is to then use them and i i honestly think the discussion about what the metaverse is and isnt that is the use case for the better verse is like we we have the conversations to determine like well whats in and whats out what are you building what am i building what are these experiences i im of the belief that this interaction that were having now is a metaverse interaction like it feels genuine to me it is certainly virtual um am i being represented by an avatar no but it still feels right to me so so anyways theres a lot of you know variants in literature about this irving you were mentioning earlier all the research thats on virtual experiences and how close they mirror reality and all that weve seen a lot of that but um in terms of user and player experiences irvin i want to give you a chance as well what are you guys building what are some of those core experiences yeah i think theres a three points to that note and you know just wanted to touch upon what diego mentioned right i think the ux is still broken thats like horrible like for gaming i cant imagine well i actually have tried it you know my my seven-year-old nephew logging into a game having to connect to a wallet im not a master create a new wallet get the seat phrases you know and then have to play and stuff like that right its necessary right and so ux uh research is required and you know but you know like on the side note theres like also there are things to consider like socio-economic topics like licensing for example you know right now im wearing you know aboard a hoodie so border paths is kind of like open lines is moderate but what happens when essentially these games have characters where assets cross over these are questions that we havent discussed and you know people have their own perspective you know but internally for example were doing in terms of experiences and at opendive when we look into our mmorpg open era and our wallet is that you know technical side were thinking about again the standards how to represent these assets right and so because you look at how different ecosystems diverge and its very interesting like you know within the solana ecosystem we kind of developed this entire notion of being able to uh embed creators like a certain number of creators royalties on chain but also now look into composability of nft so kind of being able to hardly decompose them and put them together from adverse games but then you look at for example the polka dotter kusam ecosystem you have the remark standard uh which bruno uh pioneered right and theyre already kind of thinking about this model and so how they converge but then you look at secret network and secret now requires this notion of secretives right and if things that you can reveal and so each of these ecosystems could provide their own user experience within gaming like secret network i talked to tor and i told them okay imagine the unboxing experience of an actual nft a secret makes sense right uh but yeah so like for example one of the things that were working on really in particular for kiyomi wallet which is our our quote-unquote metaverse wallet you call whatever you want we dont call it a wallet internally were looking at things on how to make energies more engaging right because i think for the most time the past oh its a year because thats when the hype came out people arent focused on the on the creation of the nft or the actual digital asset but not on the consumption of the entity or the consumption of the media right and you know we kind of came to realize this because we did a lot of work with an open air and mrpg with ai so to create like three models and characters and whenever we show people on the on blender uh and we showed the animation they were amazed like i said wow when is this coming out why dont you do this we minted it uh we put it on like you know like one of the conversations for a while its like madame actually we did polygon and i also did solana but and we showed a resume and people are like okay thats pretty cool thats that right the experience is very different right it means theres a gap in terms of how we consume that media and so within our wallet itself theyre working is the ability to kind of interact with entities and game and find the experience right uh and you know as part of open air in terms of like i would say the user experience but also how the game works weve been thinking again on the quorum code you know the game fight model like in diego also mentioned this stuff like that you know we fundamentally think that the current player and model is broken right and perhaps we shouldnt really be thinking about play turn but rather play and earn optionality where essentially you can play the game because its fun right but youre not necessarily going to always have to kind of earn something and those mechanics are there but just like the entire concept around this focus on player and stuff like that right because they deal we want people to play these quote-unquote games or metaverse experiences at all ages not just be you know crypto-thesians or people from emerging economies overall so uh thats what were doing differently you know within open era where youre thinking the the plato earned model making it plato urn theyre also looking at things like interoperability and also off-game experiences through immersive reality and audio spatial interactions theres certainly an interesting dynamic play and earn or play to earn when it comes to playing and earning like play and work are very different things and can they combine maybe can they combine long term sustainably that is still a question right its its tbd uh according to to the research and kind of what were seeing um so theres some really interesting kind of questions and angles there um that have been gone on for a long time right if youre doing play that then feels like work is it play at all uh the world of warcraft days farming your dailies you know to go and raid and those things real quick one quick note on that because you know the player play and her motto works which is or you know its not a new model but you can think about runescape in a while right in risky people well spend a lot of time making gp right but they dont have to go to the gray markets with our markets to sell it for bitcoiner or actual you know fiat currency similar in wow right people like had a lot of gold but some of them didnt want to go to the great markets to kind of go ahead and exchanges for fiat or quote unquote bitcoin right there was the option to do that if you wanted to you could right but otherwise you just enjoy the game and spend time with your friends um all of you have mentioned standards uh robert diego were talking a bunch about nft standards and like building out standards before this recording started irvin just talked about building out some of these standards robert can you start and just talk a little bit about the standards work that your uh team is working on and and why like what are standards and what do they contribute to this uh discussion ecosystem yeah i think it its a a natural progression to some of the points that irving and diogo was talking about there as well in the sense of some of the challenges around interoperability in and around ux for example as well um you know with ux uh irving made a point about how the fact that you know this the ux is still not great for blockchain games and maybe even a metaverse like experiences or products whatever you want to say and and i think at the heart of that obviously for chain guardians weve weve been building since 2018 uh i was involved with decentraland in 2017 before that and some of the key challenges include um you know principally often where you are providing a stronger ux it often means that you are having to hold or ascertain more centralized control so youre constantly um trying to balance uh user experience uh with you know centralization effectively or centralized decisions versus uh decentralization and you know for those users that want you know and often youve got a little bit of a kind of conflict in the community there because you will have uh the degens and commas or those that have been with blockchain for a long time that want everything decentralized to a large extent because they understand the power of decentralization um however for the new users that are probably beginning to kind of lets say engage with the metaverse engage with blockchain gaming um they want things as easily as quickly as possible because thats what they used to you know in the game space the irving talked about um like um research one of the key things that weve come across is that in the ga in in the traditional gaming companies they have this uh this this concept of ttf right time to fun how many clicks does it take to user to get from you know nothing to playing the game time to fun how long is it going to take and they have like really hard and fast rules whereas like you know if you cant do it in less than six seconds then youre going to lose users so if you cant do it in less than three clicks youre going to lose users and by its very nature decentralization web wallets and such they require an element of education and they require a an aspect of essentially additional touches before you get to that fund so it is its a challenge um that you have and this again you know naturally leads into the question about standards in effect in in the sense that you know standards in a similar capacity um the challenges exist in this kind of center in the centralization versus decentralization realm because one chain and one infrastructure layer may be quite a centralized solution whereas another would be much more decentralized and as as a product developer as a game developer you have to make or try to find a middle ground which enables those assets to effectively be interoperable and off the or off offer the open metaverse experience or these you know desirable experiences that we all know that decentralization can provide uh whilst trying to navigate some of the business decisions around centralization and decentralization when youre trying to think about defining standards now this is something that weve been engaging with since like i said 2018 we created an nft mining platform within chain guardians which is effectively g5 for nfts that was before d5 was even a thing really we were quite early in that thinking and it was because we looked at existing uh solutions around nfts and games and we found that there was a like a deflationary value i.e you know nfts were multiplying the value of plummeting it was like well okay how do you underpin the value of that nft um so we created a system whereby the idea was that you uh any game across any chain ie any nft on any chain could come to the nft mining platform they could stake that nft and they could earn passive rewards either in our token or our partner gaming ecosystems tokens um so we we kind of engaged with that fairly early on uh and you you know we have a fairly robust uh back end now which will handle in multi-chain and such but what we found was and this is about uh also about an education of say projects as well is that you know the projects themselves wanted to maintain quite tight control over that for example they didnt want users holding other nfts to earn their token why should we reward the users that are earning you know to earn our token when they dont hold our nfts so you have a real conflict uh when defining these standards um certainly on the infrastructure level um between the actual chains themselves and also in many cases the projects as well and im not so sure exactly if that answers the question but im just kind of highlighting some of the challenges that maybe you you have to so it reminds me of a few years ago the ico boom there was no established economics try something and see if it works oh that didnt work try to see if it works oh that kind of worked and and were in a phase now new project launch and well is there best practices ah it depends on the supply and the you know the whole system so were getting closer but but it just takes time so so that thats what it feels like to me which also if it rings true in one element that means its going to ring true thats probably a technology issue like its a new technology when you get a new technology and figuring out what are the standards how do people interact with it that thats an interesting question and it make time may take time to iterate diego im going to get to you in just a sec but uh robert brought up this uh really interesting idea of time to fun and uh so im gonna were gonna take a break of like intense blockchain motives philosophy and im going to challenge each of you im going to steal the first one but im going to challenge you think of an example of a game for those game and experienced product designers whats a great example of a game that has time to fun uh ill ill let you you know think for a second ill go first um which means ill steal the best one which is wordle wordle is the best one if not the best one of the best time to fun games that ive ever experienced and ive been playing games for decades you open the webpage and its instant like it makes sense you type in letters you you get it there if you have a question you ask a friend and you know theres a friend because everybodys sharing this stuff and youre off to the races it is so unbelievably well designed and i think it was accidentally designed you know a bit as well but the time to fund there right it makes sense uh so quickly i think its a really impressive example anybody else have an example of a good time to fund product game type product hmm its a hard one yeah i mean you can i think for me i mean you can you can kind of point to a lot of the bigger games i mean i said a little bigger games some of the really successful games like even if for example we talked about world of warcraft there i mean yeah you have a bit of a character selection maybe but honestly like once that character selections done its like you hit player and then you hit enter and youre in the world like you know that that for example is like you know thats what is two clicks and you can be in there depending on your computer speed within three five seconds you know so um that that for me would be an obvious example i want to make my character every time like that pops up and i you know i havent played for years now but i pop in and test it out and like all right im gonna see what the new creatures are and check it out i love that part of the game so im not having fun it is it is its a different type of fun yeah uh diego ideas yeah actually actually im a little bit biased because uh in my office i have a a old you know arcade game so but arcade games actually if you think about that you know you have things like pac-man you just youre immediately in the game so of course because that was easier games but uh you know you was immediately in the play now so i think that the more uh complex is the game the more this time to fan uh get longer but uh i mean really that the origin lets say that the all the original games are the ones where youre immediately in the action and yes pac-man i would say uh its its a little bit boomer stuff but uh no i i think youre right on and you think about when i grew up there was those um in every pizza hut there was a flat pac-man table and so instead of the stand up arcade there was the flat one its such a really interesting user experience it only happens in this one place and it is really unique you could just get there and you could get going right away uh interesting irvine did you have an example yeah like like robert honestly ive always been into mmorpgs or rpgs and in particular i mean i played wow for a bit but you know i was really deep into runescape quite a while and you know i think the the notion here is that you know the the factors of character creation character progression you know and open world exploration really really capture peoples minds right i think you look at world of warcraft uh for example right in the case of roscoe there wasnt really an explicit lore but the lore for example plays a huge role believe it or not when you think about it right and you know you mentioned for example seeing what wearables or characters you have i mean that happens all games where you want to rock you know the latest you know like cape or something like that uh and so those kind of games that has always been in my heart you know runescape being being the one one of it all i think a lot of people got started in crypto you know the runescape i think theres a really interesting parallel uh or or issue uh time to fun is an important metric for adoption and for playing uh but oftentimes a more complex game it takes just longer to get to that fun but they end up being richer experiences on on the back end right if you play for hours you get your 100 hours youre an expert chess right its this insanely complex game you got to spend some time to get there to understand how the pieces combine and and theres many many games like that that have that complexity and as this is a complex ecosystem web 3 right getting your wallet attached getting assets understanding gas fees and and how those work but they lead to this understanding of ownership that is this different dimension of experiences than than weve previously seen so so maybe theres something in there i dont have an answer for that one but it occurred to me in this conversation diego what about the pay to fund ratio so how much do you pay someone versus how much fun theyre having right all right now we got a new standard were going to set up our hands for that its actually a research paper and human computer interaction that were looking into yeah i ive heard of this as well like it it is definitely a thing my game product manager were talking about this too and um i think i know and maybe it sounds as though you may have done a little bit more research with me but obviously what the big thing thats kind of really obvious without even needing to do research is that you know um the amount that a uh crypto user or a blockchain gamer or a degen will pay for their phone in the space uh is is greatly outweighs what the average traditional gamer will pay right um and im sure like the the they were saying my game devs are saying theres some sort of standard that for something like every every 30 minutes you play you you know you should expect to have paid at like like five pound or something my metrics might be way off there but there is something that exists irving can you enlighten me because ive forgotten that yeah i think youre referring to the the research on behavioral economics uh and just a quick shout out because a lot of people know i think a lot of people focus on game theory but actually what we should be as people in crypto looking into is behavioral game theory uh and you know within within uh behavioral economics theres this notion of bounded rationalities i mean that you have limited rationality where you can do so hands that can lead to different outcomes on on what you have and also things like prospect theory i think in particular prospect theory is where youre talking about you know essentially where youre evaluating outcomes based on a reference right and so in the case of for example playing a game and you already know how much youre going to earn you have a reference of like like how fun is going to be here and when to bail out on the game and this is kind of shaped peoples mindset because if i tell you all right you know andy robert diego you guys are gonna make a thousand bucks a day to places play this game and the game is completely crap horrible you know are you gonna keep on playing or not uh you already know ahead of time right but perhaps you grind into the game enough to have fun right at a certain point but if you didnt have this beforehand or if you did it kind of shaped your mindset heres my life pro tip is apply that to a book youre reading youre not gonna get money out of it but as youre reading a book you can say like am i is it gonna be worth it to finish this book and you know what some of you just need to learn just put down the book so you dont have to finish every book you read um let me get back to diego um one of the things i want you to have a chance to talk about standards um but one of the things you mentioned earlier was game play and you guys are designing these gameplay experiences uh for nfts and and these different things so uh talk a little bit about that as we think about gameplay experiences we just got into this time to fun idea what are those sorts of experiences that youre designing or uh that youre seeing players play you know with or without your design things kind of coming to light what are those there is gamepl for us i mean crypto dejans and so on everything is easy but actually i mean the the the barrier to entry to people that actually are not uh familiar with blockchain is huge if you ask them to actually have a wallet or actually i mean know whatever the city phrases have metamask and so on so actually in our case when we built our product actually actually i mean our final product so the app basically that people is using actually in our case people dont really need to know anything about blockchain so the way really we we like to think about these kind of games is that that the blockchain side the web3 site the owner of ship side need to be an opt-in part because also i mean if you uh uh really force this uh i mean earnings are learning thing about the game maybe its not the game anymore like for example when we think of ax infinity and the huge success that we had i maybe will be wrong but i i dont think that actually the the huge number of users that they have are there for having fun i mean most of them are there for an earning so uh really when you design uh a game you i mean in our case at least when we design for example the the the first version of our this play to earn games so basically this is just a treasure hunt uh really uh the idea is are they people are people are we designing this for people to have fun or are we designing this for people to try to earn something so you you have really two different kind of philosophies when when you build this kind of stuff and also uh it makes me think about uh nfts like for example pop now were working uh were starting collaborating also with them and in that case for example the nft is the people that collect these nfts they are not really doing i mean when you say nft everybody say okay yeah this is something that should be available um not necessarily i mean that could be also only a collectible and so on so uh really i think that uh the urn side is a kind of big disruptor uh in in game design and so uh of course i think that that for the moment i mean the crypto games many of the crypto games thinks really a lot about the crypt economics of things and i mean its fine uh but of course this really changes totally uh the direction of of where the game is going uh so i i hope i answer your question im not sure about that but theres its such a fascinating can of worms it really is because the the idea of um people playing for earning experiences versus play experiences it its sure is a lot more entertaining to have income than it is to not have income so that could be argued as more fun whos who are we to decide whats fun and whats not fun in some cases on the other hand its not a traditional play experience used to it yeah like for example uh just coming back to this i mean treasure hunt game so we uh we had the first collaboration with an nft project with was with dodgebound so back then the guy who collected more uh 3d assets in the physical world actually got an actual nft back then uh the this dutch pound the first prize was the responded the value was three each so it was around 15k so there was people that actually spent the whole weekend hours of their day going around with a bicycle to collect assets so is that fun or is not fun i mean that is not fun anymore i mean maybe for 10 minutes but i mean that becomes a job so really the fact of attaching value to a game really disrupts whats the idea of doing something for fun or doing something for i mean gaining a lot of money so so that that is the point i think id love to offer comment here if thats okay andy is that um this is this this is a really in interesting conundrum and its something that we engage with daily at chain guardians is because you know the the game is effectively going its been designed to be played to earn and of course you know youve got that kind of youve always got in the back of your mind like the the balancing act of is this fun or does this feel like work because i can earn here does it mean that i can no longer have fun and trying to find the you know the balance between the two um and i think for for ourselves at chain guardians what we we we try to are the the analysis that weve done is that our community is made up of a number of different types of individuals um and its not just one you know its not 100 coming to play and earn its not 100 coming to just have fun its not 100 coming just to collect its actually an amalgam of all of these different types of people right like you like diego suggested here for example um they had a number of community members who for example are interested in potentially just collecting the paops that could collaborating with pope but then they had some community members that were out cycling right trying to collect these and obviously they were very much motivated by the financial reward at the end of that and i think that fundamentally here what were talking about is like intrinsic versus extrinsic motivation right the extrinsic being the financial reward that the intrinsic being you know lets say the more um lets say the soft reasons that that i would want to like belonging for example but bordeaux for example is is is more of an intrinsic value right um its a sense of belonging to a community um and im probably doing a disservice there i know its much wider than that but in principle thats one of the fundamental values of boardip um whereas for like axis for example one of the fundamental values is more extrinsic which is player to earn however i think what youll find is as you delve deeper into those communities theres a host of different types of players uh that are there for different reasons like we have uh very big collectors who probably have no intentions ever of even playing the game to be completely honest they like to collect the nfts but we also have a good base of the users that are very much looking forward to the earn capacity and i think that if you adequately layer the different elements of fun and the different elements of of earning um the different types of members that youve got in the community if you can balance that well enough that actually you can strike a balance between this is still fun but theres the opportunity to earn as well thats how we see it anyway were kind of running up on time uh so urban i want to give you a chance to kind of respond to this if you had ideas um because its kind of just like a a good summary of our thinking around users and experiences and industry as a whole yeah i mean so i think theres two things to say like you know we could sit here and discuss these questions for months or years you know but we need to ship we need to ship and go to mainnet right in our case were not a professor coin right but we are just thinking a bit more deeply on these questions before going live that is a honest truth from our case right and look the other point is like i think were a point in history where we can rewrite the core fabric of society you know to rethink and reimagine these social constructs you know and fundamentally speaking plato earned is about transforming labor structures right and so thats why emerging economies are benefiting for these concepts and so i think its always good to keep that in mind the rebuilding products are fun but also products that are transforming labor structures or co-transform labor structures and bring stability to many nations and individuals yeah i it occurred to me as we talk about the difference between play and work um maybe its a complete paradigm shift and we need to think in a different adjacent thing when we talked about remote work and work from home im home now am i in my pajama pants yes am i still working yeah like im contributing meaningfully but it actually took us quite a while at a major global event to make that an acceptable thing for for normal folks except in crypto right were kind of already doing it um but but there are these transformative events and moments where we need to adjust our thinking uh you know cuny and paradigm shift really does happen and maybe were there but uh irvin to your point of shipping yeah we need to ship but also we do need to have these conversations i know you agree as well um these conversations help others think about it and help ourselves think about it as well so uh uh to all of you thank you so much for your time diego robert irvin ill make sure and have links to all of your projects down below so you can go and follow all these guys follow their projects follow their twitters and follow all the chain link communities as well for that so before we wrap this is presented by chainlink labs and we didnt talk too much about chain link chain link is infrastructure that helps power many of these experiences whether its through randomization option computation or secure decentralized price feeds we dont always need to talk about chain link because these issues are bigger than uh infrastructure theyre social as irvin said were rewriting the fabric of society so uh everyone thank you so much for joining us be sure to like and subscribe to these youtube videos and well see you next time my name is andy boyd and im jameleclabs peace thank you it was a pleasure thank you you Development in the metaverse is anticipated to make long-time gaming and science fiction dreams a reality. In this Chainlink User Roundtable, we speak with a number of Chainlink users about their perspective on how the gaming metaverse has grown in engineering and social acceptance in the past year, plus compare their various outlooks on how end-users will interact with virtual worlds.The Chainlink User Roundtable features metaverse projects across Ethereum, Polygon, Avalanche, and Solana including ChainGuardians, OpenDive, and OVR. The panel is hosted and moderated by Dr. Andy Boyan from Chainlink Labs. These builders explore the nuance behind the metaverse buzzword, how Web3 applications are building to ensure an open and transparent metaverse, and the broader implications for Web3 and society. ChainGuardians: OpenDive: OVR: chainlink metaverse web3 Chainlink is the industry standard for building, accessing, and selling oracle services needed to power hybrid smart contracts on any blockchain. Chainlink oracle networks provide smart contracts with a way to reliably connect to any external API and leverage secure off-chain computations for enabling feature-rich applications. Chainlink currently secures tens of billions of dollars across DeFi, insurance, gaming, and other major industries, and offers global enterprises and leading data providers a universal gateway to all blockchains. Learn more about Chainlink: Website: Docs: Twitter: web3,metaverse,chainlink,